Celia Denov & Bambi Katz
AUDIO INTERVIEW
TRANSCRIPT
June 14, 2023
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 0:00
Okay, we're here on June 14, with Celia Denov and Bambi Katz. And both Celia and Bambi grew up in this neighborhood. And so, we're really looking forward to talking with them. And we'll probably just go back and forth between you or if one of you gets off on a good story, then we'll, we'll give the other one a chance. But let's start with your address in the neighborhood. So, Celia, where did you live?
Celia Denov 0:36
I lived on Alberta Avenue from 1949 to 1965
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 0:43
and Bambi.
Bambi Katz 0:44
I lived at Regal Road. My family bought a home, we moved in June of 1951. And the family and the home remains in the family.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 0:58
Wonderful. You live there yourself now?
Bambi Katz 1:00
I do. I left in 1964 When I got married, but my parents stayed on. And ultimately, I kept the property and about six years ago, seven I renovated and move back from North York.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 1:16
That's wonderful. Yeah. So did you go to Regal Road?
Bambi Katz 1:20
I did. I started Regal Road School in for grade four. Right at that time, it was a K to eight school. I finished grade eight. And I went on to Oakwood Collegiate where I met Celia in Grade Nine.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 1:35
And so where were you for the first few years of your schooling?
Bambi Katz 1:39
I lived downtown, and I went to what they call today, Lord Lansdowne? We just call that Lansdowne. We didn't know there was a lord. But Lord, they
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 1:49
probably get taken away soon. (laughing)
Bambi Katz 1:54
I went there from Kindergarten through Grade, the end of Grade Three.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 1:58
So what street did you live on?
Bambi Katz 2:00
I lived on Harbord Street.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 2:02
I went to Lord Lansdowne for grade seven and eight. Yeah, yeah. So Celia, where did you go to primary school?
Celia Denov 2:11
I went to McMurrich Public School. We're a public school. Winona didn't exist at that time. So that was also from kindergarten to grade, eighth grade and I went into Oakwood.
Interviewer Betsy 2:22
And, you know, how many students were at Oakwood when you folks went?
Celia Denov 2:27
I think it was about 600, it was smaller.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 2:30
It was smaller. So not that dissimilar to now because right, people worry that it's, you know, really shrinking.
Celia Denov 2:37
Well, it didn't have the addition then. It was physically smaller. As the population grew the board put a very large addition on right. So, it's bigger.
So the expropriated property. On. I guess it was the extension of Biggar. I don't know, was this Rosemount? And I just recently was told about a family that I know who was expropriated. Because they wanted to build a parking lot. And the board did that in those days.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 3:06
Wow. So they had to sell their house to them. Yeah.
Celia Denov 3:10
Yeah. And then the board made a large parking lots for the for the staff.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 3:14
Yeah. Right. Hmm. So do you know why your parents moved up to the St. Clair West from down on Harbord?
Celia Denov 3:27
I don't know why they chose St. Clair West. But it was it was common for immigrants who to upgrade.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 3:36
Yeah, moving up in the world.
Bambi Katz 3:37
So my parents were immigrants. Actually Jewish people from Poland. Who came in around, my father 1928 My mother 1929. And they bought their first home on Harbord Street. In 1941. My mother was pregnant with me.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 3:57
That's Bambi that's talking, should probably indicate that.
Bambi Katz 4:00
And and I think it was quite natural. As people prospered and work they worked very hard to prosper. And they wanted to upgrade. All I can remember is that my mother found that house I'm not so sure my father wanted to move as much as my mother. And she found that house but I have no recollection of how and why. It was owned by a doctor, Dr. Deacon. And he had his office in there. And that seemed very prestigious to our family. I have no idea where Dr. Deacon moved. And what was his little office in the front, part of one small room part of the house became our part of our kitchen because my mother had the wall knocked down. So it enlarged the kitchen. So I have a kitchen with a lovely window facing the front, which is very unusual. Kitchens are usually at the back.
Celia Denov 5:04
That was a very big beautiful house, still is. Your widowed aunt, and your cousin also moved with you.
Bambi Katz 5:09
Yes. We lived as a family, thank you. They lived with us on Harbord St. My aunt was 30 when her husband had cancer and died. They lived with us. And so when we moved to Regal Road, my family, my parents, my sister, myself, my aunt and my cousin. We lived there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 5:31
Wow. Yeah. And what, did both your parents work for pay, work outside the home?
Bambi Katz 5:38
Yes. Well, my, my my father. Yes, they did. But when I was young, at the time, let's say when we moved to Regal Road, my mother really worked from home. She was a seamstress. Okay. Very, very successful seamstress. And people came into our home and ordered. She measured them and she made her own patterns on the dining room table. And, and designed. And so so she worked later on, and when I got older, she did go back to work outside the home. My father also was a tailor in a little, little factory. They worked very, very hard. I can remember my mother's sewing till one o'clock in the morning or whatever,
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 6:22
To get something finished. And Celia, your family? How did they come to be living on Alberta?
Celia Denov 6:33
Well, my family lived on Dundas Street and Ossington. It's very trendy now, you know, but it wasn't then. (Laughter) It was it was quite a small house. I was very asthmatic as a child. And the street cars would go by so my mother felt that I needed to get to a place that wasn't as dusty. And I guess at some point, they decided to look for another house. So they found this house. I don't know how. I remember my older sister and I went to see it before we moved in. And we looked at the wrong house. We looked at the house next door. But anyway, we moved there. But my family did what many families did. We rented out part of the house, as we were living in it. And we always had tenants.
And, I guess, one bathroom in the whole place. But that seemed normal. And there was there was a lot of shrieking in my family, a lot of screaming. And somehow we just ignored the fact that people can hear us. And it's what I think about it. It's amazing. So um, I stayed there until I got married. In '65. My mother's, my father passed away a year later. Then, well, I actually went away to Africa for two years. When I came back. My mother was widowed, but still in the house. And she later sold it to my sister who had four children, and had been away and came back, needed a place to live. My mother then moved to Raglan. And lived there for the rest of her life until she was 97. On Raglan. So the area is very familiar. Albert Avenue was a beautiful street was it was like a different world. Although it was very hilly. That was the one thing we went up and down that hill so many times. But in terms of Jewish families, there were a lot on that block, a lot. I would say maybe almost a third. Maybe half of the familes were Jewish, and some of them were very recently arrived from Europe.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 8:28
So still coming after the war? What was I gonna say? I, did the, did the fact that the synagogue was there on St. Clair have a relationship to Jewish families feeling drawn, or comfortable, or having people they already knew or?
Celia Denov 8:52
Well, I'm sure it did for some people. I don't know whether all the families that moved here., particularly, you know, we're we're concerned about being there. But certainly, I mean, my family took advantage of it. I was, sort of grew up in that synagogue. Thirteen years. I went every week. My parents, I don't remember, my mother was. She was part of what they call the sisterhood. She actually was a really fine embroiderer. There's a bit of a tangent, but they had this fundraiser where they had this big white tablecloth. And if you had an event, my mother would embroider the date, whatever it was for $2. This was their fundraiser. And that went on for a long time. And I think that's. that tablecloth may still be there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 9:38
Yeah. Not there. But the synagogue moved.
Celia Denov 9:42
Yes. in the synagogue. It moved after Bambi and I were grown up. Yeah. So
I was married in the first marriage in 1964, the summer of 1964 innocent. I think the synagogue had a very strong presence. Truly, it was a beautiful building beautiful. And it was right on St. Clair. You couldn't miss it. And it it made a statement. I believe there were other small little synagogues in the area. Yeah. Yeah. But but that was the one that had a strong presence. So I was married there in 1964. It was the second last wedding, I think, that took place there. So they must have built , moved to their new location, probably in 1965. Right. And going Glencairn and Bathurst.
Bambi Katz 10:33
Glencairn has the longest aisle. So if you're a bride (laughter), I was a bride there and it was beautiful because the interior, well, all, all sanctuaries have a certain feeling. But all the covers of the seats were like in Red Velvet. So it was very rich.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 10:56
And amazing windows.
Bambi Katz 10:58
The windows are quite Yes. Yes. So and then it was sold to the Hungarian community. Someone very-
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 11:06
- interesting. Yes. History. But anyway,
Bambi Katz 11:10
Somebody told me recently and I don't really have the facts. When that building was coming down and after the Hungarian community sold to a developer. The the stained-glass windows were found like in the basement.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 11:27
Yeah, I’ve' heard that, too.
Bambi Katz 11:28
Did you tell me that? Thank you.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 11:31
Yeah, so yes, we and I think the urban legend is that Mel Lastman was married in that synagogue.
Bambi Katz 11:38
But it is quite possible.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 11:39
Yeah.
Celia Denov 11:43
Everyone claims to have been. But it was the major orthodox synagogue. Right.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 11:50
So not reformed, but more Orthodox.
Celia Denov 11:54
So men and women sat separately. There was a male choir, not women. As a young girl, I'm, I was not encouraging to learn Hebrew girls.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 12:04
So you didn't have a bat mitzvah?
Celia Denov 12:06
No, no. They didn't have them then. That's more recently.. But although I went through for 13 years to their Sunday school. And I was gonna bring up but I forgot. And I ended up being sort of given the teacher training course. And I never went back after. (laughter) But in spite of all that, I don't read Hebrew. So I understand a lot about the religion. I don't read Hebrew,. I'm just learning now
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 12:32
Okay. And then what about the shops on St. Clair? Like, was there a lot of Jewish shop owners and so serving a Jewish kind of culture and food and that kind of thing?
Celia Denov 12:48
There was a bakery called Hermes. Hermes It. was around Robina and St. Clair. And they were recent Holocaust survivors. I've never seen their, you know, their their numbers on their arm. That was the only one that I recall.
Bambi Katz 13:03
Me too. I think there were Jewish shop owners that owned maybe a cleaners a bakery. Like I couldn't, what we call today a convenience store. We call it a stationary. Do you remember that?
Celia Denov 13:19
Yeah, there was Lorraine's bakery do you remember?
Bambi Katz 13:21
Yes. And she went to school with us.
Celia Denov 13:24
Her parents had a bakery. Actually, just near -
Bambi Katz 13:27
Not far from right here.
Celia Denov 13:29
Right at St. Clair. Was called the Lorraine's bakery. And we also had a classmate whose family had a cleaners.
Bambi Katz 13:36
Well, we didn't identify those as Jewish.
Celia Denov 13:38
The big three, yes. Yes, but not the cleaners.
Bambi Katz 13:40
So like, when my family moved to regal Road in 1951. My mother still went downtown to her shopping.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 13:48
So to get meat or - because kosher. There were no kosher.
Bambi Katz 13:53
Yeah. But and then in the later 50s, that the Jewish community began to move north. Lawrence Ave. But it wasn't really developed yet when -
Celia Denov 14:05
it was quite an Anglo-Saxon community, environment to it. I mean, it was very lovely. Yeah. But it wasn't it wasn't particularly European notable.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 14:13
No. So you weren't necessarily coming to a place that felt like home. So that would be the synagogue would be particularly important given that.
Celia Denov 14:15
Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 14:26
Nice contrast.
Celia Denov 14:28
But it was I mean, we've just happened to be convenient for our family. I can't think of any of our friends who went there except me. You didn't show we didn't share. And so they were all different ranges. I mean, our friendship -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 14:39
- Engagement
Celia Denov 14:39
-a very left-wing group. They didn't go to synagogue.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 14:43
Yeah. They were connected with the camp, Camp Naivelt. Right. Great. Okay. Well, so what are some of your memories of of St. Clair and living in the neighborhood things that stand out? it for you. You mentioned when you and Rita were talking about the the theaters, the movie theaters and yeah, favorite places to go hang out with your friends or -
Bambi Katz 15:13
Well we used to or the movie theatre.
Celia Denov 15:15
Oh, yeah, I was I was sent every Saturday My mother wanted to get rid of me, I think. (Laughter) So there were a whole range of movies and even look in the paper and see what you know what was playing? They were maybe, well there was the St. Clair, there was the Oakwood, there was the Vaughan, there was the Bathurst. There was a Christie. And I'm probably forgetting some.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 15:34
Wow, so there's a lot. in like three blocks.
Celia Denov 15:37
I was telling Rita, my mother would give me exactly 18 cents. 12 cents for the movie and six cents for a treat. And shouldn't it be 25 cents? No, exactly. 18 cents.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 15:50
Yeah.
Celia Denov 15:50
And we often would go and I had this old friend Joanne, we would go together. And if we got scared, we put our braids over our face. (Laughter) So that's my memory of it.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 16:02
Yeah. What, do you remember any of the movies that you saw?
Bambi Katz 16:06
No, no,
Celia Denov 16:07
Well, you would see a cartoon. You'd see the news. And then you'd see the feature.
A lot of them were cowboys.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 16:15
Yeah. What about you Bambi?
Bambi Katz 16:18
Ah, yes. I remember going to movies. I remember going, walking to Dufferin and St. Clair. There was a Woolworths. I don't remember if it was Woolworths or Kresge's. But
Celia Denov 16:28
It was Kresge's.
Bambi Katz 16:30
And I loved going there. Like today kids going into the dollar store, with my few little cents and I would buy something. So that was a Saturday afternoon. treat for me. I remember the it wasn't a park. I think it was a soccer stadium at Oakwood and St. Clair.
Celia Denov 16:48
Yeah, that was a whole other thing that was a race track. Yes, there was a pool there when we first moved.
Bambi Katz 16:53
That I don't remember, a pool.
That became the No Frills. And I remember my father taking me there for something. I don't remember what the something was. And once there must have been like, a fair on a day and I remember winning a skipping contest, just visually, that I do remember.
I when I was in at Regal Road school, I had a really good friend who lived on Peterborough, which is the other side of Dufferin.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 17:26
Okay
Bambi Katz 17:27
Italian. We met when I moved in grade four next. We are still friends today.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 17:32
Oh, wow. That's very special.
Bambi Katz 17:36
We used to walk. I don't know. It was very cold. We used to walk to skate, at Earlscourt and St. Clair. And we, we I guess didn't have money to take the streetcar, we'd just walk with our skates. We did that. It was very cold. We'd have hot chocolate afterwards. That I remember
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 17:56
Always a wind on St. Clair.
Bambi Katz 17:58
And where St. Clare's Church is at Northcliff or Westmount -. Westmount, yeah. So the school behind it didn't exist.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 18:03
- the Catholic
Bambi Katz 18:07
The Catholic school. There were no Catholic schools then. That's why my friend June who was Italian and Catholic, came to Regal Road Public School. There were no Catholic elementary schools. If they were they weren't in this area. And
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 18:30
I think - or maybe you had to pay.
Bambi Katz 18:31
If you had to pay. She then, when I went to Oakwood, she went to Loretto, at Brunswick. So obviously they had to pay for that. So there was in the winter there was a skating rink, also in that area that now has, where the school is, and I broke my leg there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 18:51
Oh dear!
Bambi Katz 18:52
That I remember.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 18:53
How old were you?
Bambi Katz 18:54
It was the first winter that we, I was nine, nine that we lived on Regal Road. I remember the streetcar and it went into like a loop at Bathurst Street.
At Wychwood.
At Wychwood?
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 19:11
Well, in front of the Wychwood library.
Bambi Katz 19:14
Yes.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 19:15
Outside the Dollarama
Celia Denov 19:16
And there was a theater right there.
Bambi Katz 19:19
And there was a bowling alley.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 19:20
Bowling. I was gonna ask about that. Yeah,
Bambi Katz 19:22
We bowled, did you go bowling? I bowled there., I don't remember who I bowled with. Yeah, yes. And if you wanted to go from that, um, where the streetcar turned around, you could get a bus to go further on Bathurst St. to go north. Yes. My sister lived north and I used to take the bus to go and visit her.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 19:45
Right. Yeah, yeah. What about roller, roller skating?
Bambi Katz 19:54
I had roller skates.
Celia Denov 19:55
We used to roller skate on the sidewalk? Yeah, it was a big deal.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 19:59
Yeah. Okay,
Bambi Katz 20:00
yes it was, I still have rollers, those kind of old roller skates with the key.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 20:03
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. But did you go down to any of the roller skating arenas or anything like that?
Bambi Katz 20:11
May have, but I can't, really, if I know the name or where they were, I may remember. I may have.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 20:19
Right. Yeah.
Bambi Katz 20:16
We used to rent the roller skates at those at the arenas.
Celia Denov 20:22
I think the most significant thing for for me and maybe for all of us, it was actually the schools. So let me tell you about them because I don't know if you have
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 20:25
- that'd be great -
Celia Denov 20:28
- heard about this. So I went to McMurrich. And McMurrich was kind of, I would say, a bifurcated school, right. There were kids there who were like us whose parents, you know were working in factories, and also some kids who were quite well off. And they came from the Hillcrest area. But there was also a very large element of kids who were, when I look back, really poor, and they came from below Davenport. Around the tracks. It was a very rough school. And it was tough. I used to get beaten up there because I was Jewish. And they would say that, the kids would say that. And I remember my mother. I came home one day, and I had been bashed, and my mother went back to school with me. You know, and complained. And there was a politician later, whose name was Larry Grossman. Have you heard of him?
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 21:20
Yeah. Yeah.
Celia Denov 21:20
And he lived on Alberta. And he talked about how rough, McMurrich, the school had been. I used to, in my own sort of understanding. I used to think that the kids that got out of grade eight, the boys, at that time, you could be a policeman if you're in school. And I used to think that those kids either went to the police force, or to Kingston Penn. That's how tough it was. It was a very difficult school in some ways. And so when I got to Oakwood Collegiate, it was like heaven. So civilized, and so ordered to me. And I felt much safer there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 21:57
Yes.
Celia Denov 21:57
And we loved Oakland Collegiate, I don't know about you Bambi, but we just loved it. And the interesting thing about Oakland later on, I still remained in touch with a couple of the teachers. In fact, one of them just passed away. Mr. Dunn Levy, he just passed away a couple of years ago. So we were still in touch. They really loved the Jewish kids. Yeah. Because they were so -
Bambi Katz 21:58
- Studious -
Celia Denov 22:09
Conscientious and studious.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 22:19
Ambitious.
Bambi Katz 22:21
And trying hard.
Celia Denov 22:22
Really, yeah, really made an effort. So yeah, that was an era really, that was sort of one of the highlights. I think at Oakwood Collegiate is that period of time that those Jewish kids were there because they, they really excelled. And they tried very hard. I think we were about half and half, I would say would you say or somewhat less?
Bambi Katz 22:40
Oh, less, I would say not more than a third were Jewish. Maybe it felt like more but
Celia Denov 22:46
Right, but we also, it was very interesting. I mean, we structure ourselves. There wasn't a lot of, we were friends with the girls. But in terms of the boys, no. I mean, we didn't. We didn't socialize with the boys.
Bambi Katz 22:49
No, no, not much of that.
Celia Denov 22:58
It's quite, it's very interesting. I mean, we were very, I guess, impacted by our parents. They didn't want that, so it didn't come up.
Bambi Katz 23:08
For me, in those years, I had a social life outside of school because, to go to the, what we call the Y, down at Bloor and Spadina.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 23:08
Right, the JCC Yeah.
Bambi Katz 23:09
What's now the JCC. it was YW-YMHA. We just called it the Y. And it was it was a real social, social center. Clubs, and dances, and programs, and conferences. So I spent many years there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 23:42
And you went on the on the streetcar, how did you get there?
Bambi Katz 23:44
Yeah, of course. I walked there, or I took the streetcar.
Celia Denov 23:45
I did too. There was a gang of us.
Bambi Katz 23:49
Yeah.
Celia Denov 23:50
And well in fact, six of the women are still all together. We have lunch. You know quite often.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 23:55
Wonderful.
Celia Denov 23:55
Yeah, we're still friends.
Bambi Katz 23:57
So what Celia experienced at MC Murrich, I did not experience at Regal Road. I talk about this with my kids a lot because we were Jewish. We didn't hide our Jewishness. We had our own life. I never in my childhood experienced any anti semitism, not like what's happening today. Because my own grandchildren do experience it in school.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 24:21
Wow, wow.
Bambi Katz 24:21
And I didn't. So I went to Regal Road school, but no parent today could believe what we did. And I don't know what you did at McMurrich. When we entered I think grade five, we then had home economics and the guys, the boys, very sexist. The boys had shop. And we went to every second Friday, I think. We went down, we didn't have it in our school. so we went to Dovercourt Public School.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 24:52
And they had a, had a kitchen setup. They had sewing machines.
Bambi Katz 24:56
They had a Shop Room, and yes, and a Home Ec room with, you remember, with kitchen and sewing area. We went on our own at 10 o'clock or 10:15. Our teacher would say, Okay, it's time to go. And off we went down the Dufferin hill, cross Davenport. Went cross the railway tracks at Geary. And to Dovercourt school which, I think, is at Hallam. So we crossed Dupont as well, on our own. We just went -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 25:29
- and you came back.
Bambi Katz 25:30
And we came back. And there was a little, a little corner store on the way back that sold the most delicious chocolate donuts. And I think they were 10 cents. So our parents, I don't know about other kids, but my mother would always give me the 10 cents and on the way home we ate a chocolate donut. You know that no school could allow such a thing today?
Celia Denov 25:55
No?
Bambi Katz 25:55
No.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 25:56
There would be a teacher that you know, would walk. Like when I went, we walked with a teacher. There was 35 of us and one adult.
Bambi Katz 26:05
No teacher took us. And I don't know. But I question whether our parents had to sign up permission for us to go.
Celia Denov 26:14
Probably not.
Bambi Katz 26:14
We just went to school didn't know we just went yeah, right. Yes. The school didn't know. That is something that I feel like I'm from the Ice Age when I tell that story, because my own kids, you know, can't believe it.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 26:29
Right. But kids also played outside all day until it got dark. Like it's very different. Yes, sorry Celia.
Celia Denov 26:36
No, I was gonna say that. We conversely went to Hillcrest school right for home economics. And that was even better, because they actually had a full house on the, on the -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 26:46
- property -
Celia Denov 26:46
- school grounds
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 26:46
Oh really!
Celia Denov 26:48
It's gone now, but someone had obviously left a house. And it was wonderful. I mean, we had everything, everything you could imagine in that house. The teacher's name was Miss Harding. And we drove her crazy when I think about it. She had this thing called a at the end of the of the morning, she had this thing called question box. And you could put in questions. We used to put in these outrageous questions to annoy her. But anyway, it was great. We learned to sew, we learned to make Kraft dinner.
Bambi Katz 27:18
Oh my Goodness.
Celia Denov 27:19
But we also went on our own. There was no, and in my garage, actually, there was a bike that had been my older sister's bike, and I decided that I would like to ride this bike to Hillcrest. So I did and then I told my mother, she was upset. So very, she's very wisely set the bike nice to do it in these days to Eaton's and they repaired the bike and sent it back in their delivery thing. And then I had a bike after the
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 27:44
Wonderful Yeah, yeah, yeah, fantastic.
Just thinking, were there Jewish teachers at Harbord, like people that identified, that you knew had a similar background
Celia Denov 28:01
No.
It was very, actually I know about this because my uncle was the first Jewish teacher in the Toronto School Board.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 28:08
Wow.
Celia Denov 28:08
He taught Latin at Lawrence Park. Actually wrote all the textbooks too. He had one Jewish colleague, and that was David Steinhauer, who taught at Harbord.
Bambi Katz 28:20
He did, was he not a music teacher?
Celia Denov 28:23
No, no, he was he was a French, French teacher. And actually, I'll tell you an interesting story. So he also taught German. But he wasn't, I'm just trying to think No, I think he, he taught German. And he, I'm not sure whether he was very learned in German, but he knew enough to teach. And he used to get frustrated because the kids at Harbord collegiate most of them spoke fluent Yiddish. And they would let speak it together, which is, you know, somewhat akin to German. And he used to get frustrated with them. Well,
Bambi Katz 28:55
I took German at Oakwood. And every day Herr Schmidt, he taught us French and he taught German. And he would say to me in German, which I'm not going to say now. He would say to me every day Fraulein Katz, not in Yiddish, please. In German. Because I speak Yiddish. And it was very difficult for me to make the transition. And I took German because I thought it would be easier. What was easy for me was the sight reading. But the grammar was different.
Celia Denov 29:30
Anyway, so he used to get frustrated with these kids. one day the inspector came. And you know, he was testing the teacher and he sat the back of the room. And the kids started speaking and they were speaking in Yiddish. So Mr. Steinhauer, just let them go. And at the end of class, he was congratulated on fluency. (Laughter)
Bambi Katz 29:53
That's a great story, a great story.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 29:56
So your uncle was the first Jewish teacher at the TDSB does that mean that the TDSB was not allowing Jewish -
Celia Denov 30:04
- No. It's a very sad story actually. My uncle was really brilliant. And he had graduated from Parkdale with 11 grade 13 papers. And then he went to the University of Toronto, and he studied classics, and he did a master's degree, this is in 1913, 14. And then he could not get a job. There was no question of him going on to do a PhD. That was out of the question. Because he was Jewish. It was very, it was very overt. But he couldn't also get a job in Toronto because the Director of Education said that he would employ a Jew over his dead body.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 30:38
Wow.
Celia Denov 30:38
So my uncle ended up working in Fort William, which is Thunder Bay, today. But it was so far. It took two days, two nights, by train to get there. And he worked there for 10 years. And every year he would apply to the Board of Education in Toronto, and nothing happened. Eventually that director died. And then my uncle was hired, and he became the first Jewish teacher. And he taught -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 30:44
- so that would have been in the 30s, or the 40s?
Celia Denov 31:01
Must be the 30s. And he taught at Malvern, which was not an easy place, then. There was a lot of anti semitism in that area of Toronto. Um, when Lawrence Park Collegiate opened, he was invited to be the head of the luh,
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 31:21
Languages?
Celia Denov 31:21
- of the Classics Department out there. So he and my Aunt moved to Lawrence and Yonge, which was very far at that time. And we would take the streetcar, there was no subway. And the streetcar was very interesting. It's a bit of a tangent, but on the streetcar were two, uh, there was a motor man, who drove, and halfway back there was a conductor who took the tickets and also kept the stove going.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 31:46
Was it like a wooden streetcar?
Bambi Katz 31:48
The Spadina streetcar was like that. I remember from when I was a child.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 31:53
Wow.
Celia Denov 31:53
Anyway, my uncle ended up writing all the textbooks. If you took grade 13 Latin, and I don't know if did
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 31:58
I did not. I manage to get out of it in grade 12.
Celia Denov 32:00
Was Breslove. Now Breslav He wrote all the books. Well, when I was in grade 13, I must have told someone that he was my uncle because they were watching me at that point. But every day they would say take out your Breasloves, this book. So anyway, that's how I know a little bit about -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 32:19
- the Jewish, or not not having any Jewish teachers.
Celia Denov 32:23
And how difficult it was. I mean, at this point, don't, I think, understand how much anti semitism there was.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 32:31
And overt. Yeah, systemic.
Celia Denov 32:35
And why my uncle, he had other brothers and they all went to the States why he didn't, I don't know. I think he may be felt duty bound to stay with his parents. But he should have gone because he had a very difficult life here.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 32:49
Really reduced opportunities.
Celia Denov 32:51
I remember once asking my aunt, well, why didn't he teach in the university? And she, you know, she just was so frustrated.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 32:58
Yeah. Well, that's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. But important, very important to remember. Yeah. Well, so anything more about living all along this? I mean, one thing I was wondering was, did you feel sort of like your, your neighborhood was relatively small, like you? Were you sort of more towards friends. And you were more?
Bambi Katz 33:26
Yes, yes. I didn't know any of these people that lived on the other side of Oakwood, that came to the school. My area was, I had a life as I said, at Spadina. In other areas, but in terms of school, and my home life, it all centered around my, my immediate area.
Celia Denov 33:55
And my life was on the street. I was what you said. I mean, I was put out in the morning, and told to come back, maybe for lunch. We spend a lot of time on each other's porches playing
Bambi Katz 34:05
Monopoly. We would have a monopoly game that would go for days. We just left everything. And, and continue. And yes. And that was kids that lived right around my house. I always tell my children so and so lived there, and so and so lived there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 34:26
And were there many Jewish families?
Bambi Katz 34:29
No, there was one, two doors away. I was friends with them. And then they moved and I, I lost contact. I only played with those kids immediately around.
Celia Denov 34:43
And then once we went to high school again, it was pretty. You know, I walked to school with Sharon every day. She lived on Winona, I lived on Alberta, we’d wait for each other at the corner and we marched off to school. And then there was another friend, Shelley. who lived just up the street, but it was very centralized.
Bambi Katz 34:59
And I don't well remember, when I came to Oakwood Collegiate, I didn't know anybody. And they, they determined that we should go into certain grades. We didn't even ask, or our parents didn't ask for sure. But we were in a music class together, a string instrument class. And that's how I met Celia and these other girls. I don't even remember how it came to be that we became a group of friends. But then -
Celia Denov 35:29
- we ate lunch together.
Bambi Katz 35:30
We ate lunch, but then I do remember on weekends, we would, we would go Saturday night fruit to the local pizza shop. We would meet so it was a relationship that solidified over those years.
Celia Denov 35:45
Someone else may have told you this. But Rosalie Abella also lived in the area.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 35:48
Oh, yeah. I saw that in the notes. Yeah, that's fantastic.
Celia Denov 35:51
She was a lovely girl. She was slightly younger than I was. And she, her sister is one year younger. And they look like twins. They were sort of, they were kind of heavyset. And they had sort of European braids. And the thing I remember is that they were taking piano lessons. And they, if you went by their house, you would hear the duets coming. And Rosalie years later, and I mentioned this to her, she said, she said we really didn't have a childhood. I mean, their parents were, you know, wanting them -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 36:20
- very demanding. And it paid off.
Celia Denov 36:24
Yes. Certainly for for Rosalie.
But we called her Rosie. Yeah. And we called her her sister Tony. I didn't know her name was Rosalina.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 36:36
So tell us more about the music program at Oakwood because certainly Oakwood was very well known for its music program.
Celia Denov 36:43
Yeah, it was actually one of my photos I brought is of the teacher and a few his students.
Bambi Katz 36:48
I think what made it very special when we were there was that the teacher was a very young he was like the only young, refreshing teacher in the school. All the other teachers were
Celia Denov 37:02
I'd say he was friendly, he wasn't refreshing (laughter)
Bambi Katz 37:07
I would never have thought that. The other teachers were older and somewhat militaristic, in their way. And the principal -
Celia Denov 37:16
- and they were all veterans of the first World War. Sorry.
Bambi Katz 37:19
Yeah. Yeah. So that was the atmosphere in the school, the tone. And, and then we had this teacher his name was Bruce Snell. He was young. He was sort of like teachers today.
Celia Denov 37:32
Very charismatic.
Bambi Katz 37:33
Very charismatic.
Celia Denov 37:34
Everybody adored him.
Bambi Katz 37:35
And, and, and he stood out as a staff member. And I think he really made the music program for our generation. Like I am sure people that came before us. It was different.
Celia Denov 37:48
You know, years later, there was a reunion and Mr. Snell came. And people were just so happy. I remember this middle age two men racing down the stairs and we got to see Mr. Snell. Later on. He said he felt like a rock star. I mean, it was he was just wonderful. And Sharon particularly loved him. And he was very proud of her obviously. He was very curious.
Bambi Katz 38:15
He went on in the system. He eventually became a superintendent. I met him in, in, at that time. I caught up with him. And he had some heart problems. He didn't live to an old age.
Celia Denov 38:30
He died of cancer, actually.
Oh, was it cancer, I thought it was heart
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 38:33
So a really classic example of the difference one teacher can make.
Bambi Katz 38:38
Absolutely, absolutely.
Celia Denov 38:39
Let me show you what I brought.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 38:39
Oh, wait for the rustling. And I mean, Oakwood also had a very strong academic reputation. And and what about sports? Like, were you involved in swimming, or -?
Bambi Katz 38:58
I was not. But it did have a very good sports program and went on to have an even bigger sports program. Beyond our years. What I was somewhat for the first three years involved in in the music and the orchestra. And in my later, I think last two years at Oakwood. I worked on the yearbook. I was one of the editors of the yearbook. And and I remember helping with the drama.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 39:27
Oh of course, drama as well.
Yes, the plays. We used to go to the Kiwanas Festival. What was it called, the festival, the competition for drama?
Celia Denov 39:37
The Simpson's Festival. And Shelley was in that.
Bambi Katz 39:45
Shelley was in that.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 39:46
What's Shelley's last name?
Celia Denov 39:47
Oh, it's now Hunter. It was Grossberg. She was very good in drama. They won the Simpson's Festival that year. She was a star.
Bambi Katz 39:56
At Eaton’s College. (NOTE: Eaton's store at College and Yonge had an auditorium)
Celia Denov 39:57
Yes. That's right. And Sharon was at cheerleader which was unusual for Jewish kids. The Jewish girls didn't really go into sports. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting how we were sort of oriented. But we didn't. But we certainly, I was on in the yearbook, too. I think I was the editor in grade 12. Yeah, we were all in the music program.
And Rita was reminding me that you're in high school, your exam results were published in the newspapers. So tell us a bit more about that.
In grade 13, this was very scary, actually. The way you got your results? Well, actually, let me just think about this. No, that was at university where the results were published in the newspaper. In Grade 13 they came in the mail. And it it was terribly scary, because you had to pass all nine papers. And we happened to be at camp together. And so her results came first. And then mine came second. And I ended up with an Ontario scholarship. So I was happy. But very nervous. I mean, I felt I had failed everything, as we all did in those days. Yeah. Anyway, um, so that was those results. The sort of scholarship results were in the newspaper. I still have that newspaper, actually. But in university, yes, they were. We went to the U of T. I think you did too?
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 41:26
Yes.
Celia Denov 41:26
You look familiar to me. Anyway, um, so they were published and they they would come out the night before. There was, I think a nightly anything paper edition of The Globe and Mail. So Shelley and I are other friend would go and stand at the corner of Oakwood and St. Clair waiting for the drop, and the drop would come and then we'd open the paper. And somehow magically, you could find your name there amongst the 1000s of names. And then we knew we passed.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 41:53
Oh my goodness, drama. Wow. Are there other things that you wanted to remind us about or tell stories about that we haven't covered?
Celia Denov 42:11
I'm not sure. I think you've done a good job.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 42:15
Yeah, we've talked about, I'm just looking at my cheat sheet here. So Celia, you went to the synagogue, and it was Orthodox, and you didn't have a bat mitzvah,
They didn't have bat mitzvahs
I know, I know. And yeah,
Celia Denov 42:32
I don't think the Orthodox still have a bat mitzvah, do they? They do something else
Bambi Katz 42:36
They do a communal kind of rite.
Celia Denov 42:38
That's sort of more of a Conservative and Reform innovation?
Bambi Katz 42:38
But I think in the early 60s? I should know this. But I think it's in the early 60s in the United States. There was a rabbi whose daughter became the first woman to become a bat mitzvah. And only after that, did it grow, and it grew slowly. Yeah. It grew slowly. And it was, as Celia said, only in the conservative, the reform and the Reconstructionist movements. Yes, the rabbi whose daughter became the first bat mitzvah was a reconstruction. Okay.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 43:21
So in terms of religious influence, it sounds like the Y maybe, not so much religious, but community and Jewish culture was really -
Bambi Katz 43:31
That was where I attended.
Celia Denov 43:33
Also was summer camp.
Bambi Katz 43:35
Yes. So my, I didn't go to the synagogue on St. Clair, because my parents were more socialist. leaning and they belong to an organization which became our synagogue in a sense, our community.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 43:50
Right. So what was that?
Bambi Katz 43:52
It was called the Workmen's Circle.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 43:54
The Workman's Circle, right.
Bambi Katz 43:56
And my so my Jewish life centered around that. Yes, I went to every day after school, I went to a Yiddish school. Till the end of grade, when I was in grade 10.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 44:08
Where was it located?
Bambi Katz 44:10
Well, the one I went to was down at on Crawford Street, just south of south of College. I took the Ossington bus and the College streetcar every day after school on Sunday morning. I want to, and that reminds me of something that is pertinent to the area. Before in the late 40s, before I lived on Regal Road, at Regal Road Public School, there was a Yiddish class an after school usually class. Yes. And it was run by the Workmen Circle, okay. And the school was called the Peretz schools. Peretz was a great Yiddish writer in Poland, P. E.R. E. T. Z. Peretz. His initials would be Y. L. l like from his first two names and then Peretz. The school was called the Peretz school. And they had a class at Regal Road. When we moved there in 51, that no longer existed, I'm not, I don't know why. Maybe the school didn't want it or there weren't enough students and I don't know. But during, so I used to go down to Crawford Street. In, somewhere in the 50s, maybe around 1953, 54, there was a big TTC strike in the winter. So I couldn't go down to my Yiddish class. I had to walk from my house on Regal road to Rowlinson Public school. On Glenholme and St. Clair. They had a Yiddish class from the same school, the Peretz School.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 45:53
And that would have been in the city of York rather than in the city of Toronto,
Celia Denov 45:56
That's right, that's right. right.
Bambi Katz 45:57
And for me, it was a long walk. It was cold, it was dark, it was uphill. It was very dark when I used to come home. I think my mother used to meet me at St. Clair. Like halfway Nice.
Celia Denov 46:12
Kids who lived in this area didn't go to Oakwood. Did they? They were considered to be -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 46:16
No, they went to Vaughan.
Bambi Katz 46:18
Right.
Celia Denov 46:19
Except later. I mean, the kids that grew up in your house did right.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 46:22
Yeah, and my kids went my kids went to Oakwood and to Runnymede.
Bambi Katz 46:29
So, um, so my Jewish life was not really in the same area.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 46:36
That's fascinating.
Bambi Katz 46:37
So from the same organization. I also went to summer camp.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 46:40
Okay.
Bambi Katz 46:41
In Pickering.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 46:42
In Pickering. Wow. So you got buster. Did you get bused there?
Bambi Katz 46:46
I don't remember. I think parents my father drove. It a long time. There was no 401. No. We had a car.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 46:54
Oh, that was unusual.
Bambi Katz 46:56
195050. And we took the Highway 2. It took a long time.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 47:00
Yes. And that, was it for a month or two weeks or one week?
They just tried to keep me there as long as they could.
The whole summer? (laughter)
Celia Denov 47:09
Well families had little cabins there.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 47:11
Did your family come?
Bambi Katz 47:13
Well, they used to come for their vacation when the factory closed. But then for three years, I didn't go there. I went to Camp B'nai Brith? When you were there.
Celia Denov 47:22
No, I didn't go to the neighbors because I don't know.to this day I don't know whether my parents didn't know about it. Oh, I'm still pissed off. (Laughter) that I didn't get to go.
Bambi Katz 47:30
So some of our other friends were there. And and then I came back to that camp and spent many years in camping even as an adult, as a staff member.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 47:42
And where's camp B'nai Brith? Was it and in Halliburton?
Bambi Katz 47:45
In Halliburton.
Yeah, it was. Yeah.
Celia Denov 47:48
I think it still exists. Probably Yeah.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 47:54
So Camp Naivelt was more of a radical progressive. Yes. Camp, but it was the same idea. Some people had little cabins?
Bambi Katz 48:01
One thing. Nivelle was in Bronte. This means you were in new world, right. And the one that I went to is called Yungvelt, which means young world. So there was always conflict. Because Naivelt was much more to the left.
Celia Denov 48:22
Naivelt was communist.
Bambi Katz 48:23
Yes, it was. They didn't want to use that word. Yeah. And my camp was very Yiddish language based. So we did, every day we had singing Yiddish songs.
Celia Denov 48:23
No kidding?
Bambi Katz 48:28
Yeah, we did drama. I used to perform in plays. When the parents came out on Sunday. All in Yiddish.
Celia Denov 48:42
Wow.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 48:43
So trying to transmit the history and culture
Bambi Katz 48:46
Exactly. So it was an extension of my life at home. My, my Yiddish studies that I went to, don't think I didn't, I hated it. And I resented it. But the truth is, I'm still involved today. In the Yiddish speaking community because of it. But as a child, there's no appreciation of what your parents are making making you do
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 49:09
If you had other things you wanted to do after school.
Bambi Katz 49:12
Well, I did go to brownies, at Regal Road, Public School. But then I couldn't be a Girl Guide. I still resent it because it conflicted with the time that I had to go to my Yiddish school.
Celia Denov 49:26
Well I went to Girl Guides. At Shaarei Shomayim.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 49:29
okay. Yeah. And there was -
Celia Denov 49:32
And my Brenda, the one that lived in your house, she and her husband had a Cub Scout Troop at the Shaarei Shomayim.
Bambi Katz 49:39
Oh, how interesting.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 49:43
What about was there an anti semitism sort of underlay to Girl Guides and -
Bambi Katz 49:49
I don't know if -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 49:50
You didn't experience -
Bambi Katz 49:51
I didn't I don't know why I must have been a very nice. I
Celia Denov 49:51
You were just fortunate.
Bambi Katz 49:57
I was fortunate. I was I lived a very Jewish life at home, and my outside world as I told you, I never, I don't recall experiencing any anti semitism and Regal Road School did not have a high percentage of Jewish kids. And I just played. I played with everybody and I don't know how it happened.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 50:23
Right. But Celia did experience it in primary school.
Celia Denov 50:27
Yeah, it was a particular geographic, kind of socio-economic situation. There were a lot of Jewish kids. There was that undercurrent.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 50:37
Persecution was alive and well.
Bambi Katz 50:40
So I have two grandchildren that are Regal Road, almost, the second one is graduated. And there are very few Jewish children there. And they do experience some anti semitism today.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 50:59
Wow.
Bambi Katz 50:59
It's as my daughter says, it's simply ignorance. Its kids see this on social media? They see it on television. Yeah. And they don't know what it means. But they'll give the Heil Hitler salute, you know, I or they'll deal with swastikas or they'll call him -my grandson -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 51:17
Wow.
Bambi Katz 51:18
And at least today, what's different is parents can address it with school. Our parents, I think, would have been afraid your mother was brave that she was.
Celia Denov 51:30
Oh yeah. My mother was ferocious
Bambi Katz 51:32
I think, you know, the bureaucracy of the school was very strong.
Celia Denov 51:40
They immigrant parents were intimidated.
Powerless.
Or respectful.
Bambi Katz 51:46
So my mother didn't speak English. Well, she was in awe of the of the school and
- the authority
- of doctors and of everybody. You just didn't question anything. So I guess as Celia says, I was very fortunate not to experience it, but the kids today are still dealing with.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 52:07
Wow. Yeah. Celia, anything you would want to add from what we've talked about?
Celia Denov 52:12
Of course, I'll think of something later. No, I don't think so.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 52:16
What about the libraries? Did you guys go to the library?
Celia Denov 52:19
Oh, my father and I used to take trips off to Dufferin Library. Every week. And we'd walk along Roselawn. And leaves would be very big on the on the sort of sidewalk.
And one day, actually, when I got back to school, I think I must have been in Grade two. My teacher said to me, was that you and your father I saw on the street on Saturday going into the library? I was astonished that this teacher had a life outside -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 52:49
- the walls.
Celia Denov 52:50
- of the classroom. I couldn't believe she'd actually seen me on a Saturday with my father. Yeah, that was like a whole new -
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 52:57
Revelation.
Celia Denov 52:59
Yeah.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 52:59
Great. Well, thank you so much.
Celia Denov 53:02
Oh, You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Yeah.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 53:04
Just it's been a fascinating Yeah. And very important
Celia Denov 53:07
For me. I look back on it with great fondness. When I drive down the street, I remember where every single person lived. And it's, you know, nostalgic. I mean, Oakwood Collegiate was a wonderful, a wonderful time. I actually had a better time there than at university. There was more cohesive family. Teachers were more attached to us. I mean, I have something from Mr. Snell. That you can see and it just shows the attachment that there was. So it was a very good school. We every one that remembers that. My dentist for example, is one of them. We all have this incredible memory of Oakwood collegiate. Yeah at that, time. It was like a jewel.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 53:46
Yeah. Yeah.
Celia Denov 53:49
Very few people, I think maybe, you know, have that much affection for high school.
Interviewer Betsy Anderson 53:55
Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you very much. I'm going to turn it off. And then we'll talk about all sorts of other fascinating things.